[plt-scheme] conventional syntax (was: Scheme contradictions)

On Sun, 7 May 2006 08:19:02 0200, Matthew Flatt <mflatt at cs.utah.edu> wrote:
> At Fri, 5 May 2006 10:22:21 +0200, Erich Rast wrote:
> > I shouldn't jump in, since this is a rather worn-out topic
>
> My hesitation is even greater, I think. But I feel obligated to point
> out that we (i.e., the core PLT Scheme developers) are experimenting
> seriously with a more conventional syntax. In the coming months, a lot
> of my effort will go in this direction.
>
> > Some of the suggestions for alternative, usually ALGOL style syntax for
> > LISP I've seen so far in my opinion were too half-harted or too much
> > focused on elegancy instead of practical usefulness. If a block syntax
> > is used, it should be as conventional as possible.
>
> Yes.
>
> > In my personal opinion, the
> > only sane choices would be Python syntax or VB/RB-style implicit block
> > syntax (with an end statement).
>
> Your definition of "conventional" surprises me. In a world dominated by
> C, C++, Java, C#, and Javascript, I think "conventional" means curly
> braces and semi-colons.
>
>
> In the current version of DrScheme in the SVN repository, if you use
> DrScheme's "(module ...)" language, you can run the program
>
>  #honu
>
>  function len(lst) {
>    if (isEmpty(lst))
>      return 0;
>    else
>      return 1+len(rest(lst));
>  }
>
>  var myList = list(1, 2, 3, 4);
>
>  len(myList);
>
> You'll see the result 4.
>
> The function `len' and the list `myList' above are Scheme values ---
> and they're values in this new language, as are all Scheme values.
>
> You can import into #honu from any Scheme library, though you may have
> to use the #sx escape to write a Scheme name, perhaps in the process of
> switching to a "conventional" identifier:
>

My main concern about this is: Why honu? Is it a new language? Is it a
Scheme with syntax for dummies? Is this really needed? Won't it create
more entropy in the PLT-Scheme world?

Cheers,

Paulo Matos

>  #honu
>  require rename(lib("mred.ss", "mred"),
>                 getFontFromUser,
>                 #sx get-font-from-user);
>  getFontFromUser();
>
> Obviously, a long-term solution involves either renaming Scheme imports
> automatically or writing a translation for common libraries.
>
> The new language will extensible in the same way as Scheme. I haven't
> written the new version of `define-syntax', but much of the
> infrastructure is already in place (and it's used to implement the
> forms above).
>
> We've only barely started, and there's a long way to go before it's
> useful: completing the core language, building a suitable pattern
> matcher for macros, re-writing all of the documentation so that it can
> be viewed from either world, adjusting error messages for different
> contexts, and more. I'm not sure that it will work, and I think we'll
> have to invest a lot of effort to find out.
>
>
> To be clear, I am *not*
>
>  * suggesting that you try to use #honu right now;
>
>  * planning to post more about the design in the near future;
>
>  * receptive to advice against the experiment;
>
>  * soliciting design opinions; or
>
>  * planning on reduced support for Scheme-style syntax --- though, if
>    all goes well, I will eventually switch my primary mode of
>    expression.
>
> For now, I just want to let you know what we're trying.
>
> Matthew
>
>
> P.S. - If you're curious how #honu works, try inserting a ' before
> #honu. See also the "Honu" chapter in the MzScheme manual.
>
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>


--
Paulo Jorge Matos - pocm at sat inesc-id pt
Web: http://sat.inesc-id.pt/~pocm
Computer and Software Engineering
INESC-ID - SAT Group