[plt-scheme] A first experiment with HTDP

From: Jos Koot (jos.koot at telefonica.net)
Date: Tue Jul 1 16:42:59 EDT 2008

Yes, I trust Grant enough to praise him for his efforts. He seems a sincere 
and integer  person to me.
I  am glad, though, that you do understand my worry, which has nothing to do 
with Grant in person.
Dutch and German are not the same, although a little bit alike, but I can 
read and speak both of them. Dutch is my native language, English the 
second, French and Spanish (i.e. Castiliano) the third ones, German the 
fourth and Catalonian the fifth. :::))) (Which is a pitty, because I live, 
nowadays, in Catalunya)
Thanks for reminding me to be friendly to Grant.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matthias Felleisen" <matthias at ccs.neu.edu>
To: "Jos Koot" <jos.koot at telefonica.net>
Cc: "Grant Rettke" <grettke at acm.org>; "pltscheme" 
<plt-scheme at list.cs.brown.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [plt-scheme] A first experiment with HTDP

HtDP is clearly on the educational side of the spectrum that you're
worried about. So you should praise Grant for trying to add education
where universities and colleges have needlessly and pointlessly put
training first, a common phenomenon in both the US and Germany in
this day and age.

As Mike Sperber once told me:

> Wir sind froh, dass die Absolventen schon Java können.  Programmieren 
> müssen wir denen halt noch beibringen.
I am sure your Dutch-German is good enough to translate this concise
re-statement of my message.

(I recently ran across a statement by the chairman of CS at UI @
Chicago Circle that expressed disbelieve that someone would expect
education from a state university, which -- in his opinion -- had to
serve the economic interests of the state of Illinois. It is not
surprising then that companies spent on education of their employees
because universities and colleges fail.)

On Jul 1, 2008, at 4:02 PM, Jos Koot wrote:

> The idea that companies take their own responsability of training  their 
> employees sounds good. In my humble opinion general education  (high 
> schools an universities) have, in the first place, the task  to widen the 
> horizon of their students, not so much as to prepare  students for 
> commercial life. If a company wants people with  certain skills, it is the 
> responsability of the company to allow  their employees to adquire that 
> skills. It is often heard that  educational programs should better fit the 
> needs of commerce. That  sound comes from commerce of course, for it saves 
> a lot of money,  or rather robs money from the community as a whole. 
> Students are  paying for their education. If the education is directed to 
> the  needs of commercial life, than commerce should pay both the study 
> and the student. mho.
> Some companies do have the policy to hire fresh people and provide 
> trainings for them. In principle that is a good thing, except when  it is 
> the company's objective to hire people that can easily be  brainwashed. 
> Yes, I am a little bit paranoid.
> There should be a golden path between the principal goals of  eductation 
> and the more practicle ones. Is there?
> Jos
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Rettke" <grettke at acm.org>
> To: "pltscheme" <plt-scheme at list.cs.brown.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 8:21 PM
> Subject: [plt-scheme] A first experiment with HTDP
>> At my company, we have a very diverse experience level among all of
>> our employees.
>> In fact, it is common practice to hire people with little to no
>> experience (freshers who may or may not have studied in school or
>> vocational training) and sort of train them on the job. There is
>> always a want to teach the freshers "how to be good", my thought  is to
>> utilize HTDP.
>> I want perform the first experiment in company training by working
>> through HTDP start to finish with two or three freshers. We will have
>> voice-meetings twice a week (along with email and instant messages).
>> There is no time limit.
>> Does this make sense? Is there any more to it?
>> _________________________________________________
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