[plt-scheme] Perplexed Programmers

From: Matthias Felleisen (matthias at ccs.neu.edu)
Date: Wed Aug 29 12:51:31 EDT 2007

On Aug 29, 2007, at 12:42 PM, jerzy.karczmarczuk at info.unicaen.fr wrote:

> I pointed out some reasons why the situation concerning the  
> programming
> competence/quality in Europe/France seems to be blocked by the way the
> contry/society got organized. I said:
>>> So, sorry for some impoliteness, but a person who claimed that  
>>> the  "guilt"
>>> is individual, that teachers, programmers, managers, etc. are  
>>> bad  workers,
>>> and such an abstract monster as "the system" doesn't really  
>>> exist  in this
>>> context, said a sheer nonsense. We are not in XVIII century anymore.

Jerzy, I have included "connectors" from the beginning of the  
which I consider the manifestations of systems. I don't think you have
any reason to call this 'sheer nonsense' and '18th century' thinking.
It is a long-standing principle of 'subsidiary', which you as a Polish
person may recognize as Catholic if you don't practice the faith.

I will put the rest, including your insinuations and insults below,
where they belong.

-- Matthias  

> Matthias Felleisen answered:
>> This was me. And if you don't start at the individual level, you will
>> never make progress. That's what they call productivity and that's  
>> what
>> Maggie meant when she said "there is no such thing as society."  
>> Of  course
>> she exaggerated to make her point but it is a valid point. Those who
>> always try to shelter the individual from individual  
>> responsibility are
>> doing the society a huge disfavor.
> I don't know who said that we shouldn't start at individual level, or
> who "always" tries to shelter the individual from his responsibility.
> Certainly not me. If you want to insinuate such things, find a better
> target. We try to do our best as comp. sci. teachers, but the results
> are diluted. I think simply that the monster called "system" has some
> objective reality, that's all what I implied.
> Perhaps you have heard about XX century systems, this time political,
> usually considered criminal. If you really think that it was/is  
> enough to
> find the individuals who directly committed some war crimes and  
> shoot them
> and this would cure the situation, I wish you good luck. There are  
> still
> some to work upon.
>> I am not surprised to get such nonsense coming from a French person.
> -- Matthias 
> Somebody complained that this discussion lowered a little its high  
> level.
> You have just made a significant step in the wrong direction. Some  
> people
> here might remember this statement for a long time. I withdraw from  
> further
> discussion, I prefer to think of you as an excellent researcher and
> teacher, rather than as aggressive besserwisser.
> Jerzy Karczmarczuk (Polish)
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